This week I had the pleasure of talking to Zaffrin O’Sullivan, founder of the soon to launch minimalist clean beauty brand, Five Dot Botanics. After working as a lawyer for many years, Zaffrin was searching for a new idea to take her in a different direction and to meet new people. This is where Zaffrin’s clean beauty journey began, initially as a blog about beekeeping. Being immersed in nature and working with beeswax led Zaffrin to her clean beauty light bulb moment and the beginnings of her skincare company Five Dot Botanics.
I love the way that Zaffrin describes the name ‘Five Dot Botanics’ as her North Star of her brand, something to always come back to if she finds herself losing her way. With the maximum number of ingredients in each of her products capped at five, it perfectly encapsulates her vision of a simple and radically minimalist brand. Registering the trademark wasn’t all that simple though, but Zaffrin stood her ground after objections from Chanel! For Five Dot Botanics, less really is more. If your only going to use five ingredients, you have to make sure they really work. Zaffrin has created some really beautiful products, including a facial mist and a oil gel cleanser, that we cant wait to try!
Zaffrin also discusses her commitment to sustainability, seeing Five Dot Botanics as a business committed to more than just providing beauty products. The ethicality of the supply chain, the impact on the environment and creation of employment opportunities have all been carefully considered to form an ecosystem of positivity that goes well beyond just their products.
Finally, Zaffrin gave some words of advice for other founders out there, or anyone considering starting the challenging journey of establishing your own skincare business. Here are some of her top tips:
- Surround yourself and your business with the right people
- Get your branding registered early so you don’t have any headaches down the line
- Consider funding and investment earlier than you think (with support and resources from The Clean Hub!)
A big thank you to Zaffrin for being part of our community and sharing her story and advice on Clean Chat this week. Check out the podcast below!
Raquel: Hi there and welcome to Clean Chat, I’m the host Raquel Wing, found of The Clean Hub. Every Thursday we help to grow the clean and natural beauty industry by interviewing key experts, founders and influencers so that people can make informed decisions. Check us out at TheCleanHub.com to learn more. Now onto the Clean Chat Podcast.
Hello everyone, today we have the lovely Zaffrin from Five Dot Botanics, they’re launching in August and they’re all about minimalism and using five or less ingredients and absolutely no synthetics. So without further ado, Zaffrin do you mind telling us a bit about yourself and why you started Five Dot Botanics?
Zaffrin: Yeah sure, firstly thank you so much for having me this is so brilliant to be on The Clean Hub. I think that what you’re doing is fabulous and brilliant for the clean beauty community so firstly I want to say thank you. My story for starting up Five Dot Botanics is kind of several chapters in my life coming together. I’ve worked for 15 years in television and I have two small kids, they’re 3 and 5 but when I had the idea for Five Dot they were much much younger. I was feeling that I lost my way a little bit as a lawyer and kind of business and I wanted to do something different and I wanted to meet new people. It was that junction in life that makes you start to search for new ideas. I was writing a blog about honey just to learn about blogging, it was niche, no one read it but I loved it with a passion and I took up bee keeping. Like any hobby you take up, you have an assumption about what you are going to learn from it but it’s stuff you don’t expect to be moved by that has a profound impact. For me it wasn’t the bee keeping it was being out in nature. It was learning about plants. Suddenly working with beeswax, making my own lip balm and suddenly this entire new world opened up to me which I’d never been exposed to before. It coincided with a lot of things like eating better, my cleaning products were changing. I was very moving towards clean beauty but didn’t really know that that’s what I was doing because I was thinking about it holistically. I then basically had this light bulb moment to create a radicalistically skin care company and then from there Five Dot Botainics was born.
Raquel: Awesome and so you said it was kind of a slow transition into clean beauty, off this blog. How difficult as that? Did you just go in the bathroom and just throw everything away or how did that go?
Zaffrin: No I didn’t. So I think you know , I’m not that kind of binary. Life is about choices that you’re making but sometimes you’re thinking through things slowly. So food is a really easy one for everyone to understand, they’re ingesting it. Then what you’re spraying in your home is a very easy one to think about cleaning. Clean beauty for me always has been about just keeping it very very simple. Even moving to a facial oil, things were stinging my eyes. I was just not wanting to buy stuff in the shops anymore. I was kind of resenting the mass produced products by huge conglomerates who felt very anonymous with suspicious practises, with obscure value chain services, sourcing problems. So it came from lots of different angles actually but no I haven’t thrown everything away but I think I’m pretty much getting there. And you know I don’ t have a skincare background, I don’t have a beauty background. A lot of its learnt but we live in a age of unprecedented opportunity for us to learn about anything that we want to learn about, there’s tons of information out there. Some of it’s true, some of it’s not good but there’s lots of forums, this is a growing movement and there’s always someone you can ask about what do you think I should use? What do you think about this? What’s an alternative or a substitute? I think there’s tons of knowledge out there.
Raquel: Can you tell us a little bit about Five Dot Botanics and where the name came from and how you source the minimalistic ingredients?
Zaffrin: Yeah so, I mean I had this idea and Five Dot Botanics kind of in one way means everything and nothing. When I set the name up I wanted a north star for my brand because I think brands lose their way. They start up with an ambition and I knew my ambition was radical minimalism and 5 was this cap. I don’t it to six, I don’t want it to be four, I don’t want it to be three, I don’t want it to be eleven and I thought if I had this in my name, like a mission statement if I ever get lost that’s my north star, five and dot was kind of a stop. I don’t know if you’ve seen our branding, our branding is inspired by morse code so dot dot dot , dash dash dash dot dot dot and the reason we switched to morse code for our branding, I mean the branding journey I can tell you about in a minute because that’s not been easy. But it’s because we think about ourselves as people that are helping your decode your skin care by having five ingredients you are empowered, you get it, you can count it on one hand. And the Botanics, I think you know out of all of it, it’s quite common; botanics, botanical, organics. It was just I though Five Dot on its own, it could be known as Five Dot, it just needed that nudge to give people the indicator we’re plant based, we’re vegan and so it came together. The name stuck then stuck and that’s all it could be, and we did, I mean IP Law, the first thing I did was I need to register the trademark and we registered it and as everyone knows a couple of months have to pass before you get your notice and you’re certificate and a letter came, a really shirty letter from Chanel which kind of through me because the weird thing is when I advise people in business it’s not personal but when the letter came it was the first time it had something to do with me and something I was creating and I could just not get my head around about Chanel would potentially oppose us using the number 5 in my name.
Zaffrin: I know, I know. So I know enough that to know that no matter the strength of your merits, we wrote a couple letters back and forth and we came to an agreement with Chanel on it. I think we could have gone the whole hog and defended or vision to have to 5 in our name because I think we would have been successful but Chanel has hundreds of people monitoring their trademarks and I think it would have taken us two years to resolve and like £10,000 and who has time for that? I would have changed the name but we came to an agreement but the great thing was it really made me love the name even more because we fought for it, we own it and Chanel yeah look at us.
Raquel: Exactly, now Chanel knows who you are.
Zaffrin: Yeah exactly, so just from this idea in like my bedroom I suddenly thought Chanel is talking to me, we are going to be big. We’re out there, we’re a threat and indie beauty is a threat it’s a big business. So yeah that’s a really interesting, weird stressful but great way of starting you’re brand. But also you know, I don’t formulate our products. I had a very scientific and clinical view about how I wanted to go about creating the products and so I worked with a scientist, a cosmetic scientist who is well known but he’s my secret but I’m never going to share him with anybody (laughter).
Raquel: I know, once you find a formula..
Zaffrin: He can never be revealed (laughter)
Zaffrin: But he was fabulous, he kind of got the idea, he loved the idea. He was working on some really high end products for the ingredients and he thought I think this is great and you’re going to have more of the good stuff. And I was quite vain, I was like I want to use this, I want to use this and so he was a really good counter balance to the vanity of somebody starting a business and someone really going, what do you really want? High performance skincare products using five ingredients, if you want to deliver this we need to go back and look at what we’re using and make sure it’s really good because that’s the promise you’re making people. You don’t need to compromise of the efficacy of your product just cause you’re using five ingredients. And because that’s the promise that we’re making, having that scientist on board really gave me a lot of strength to go yeah we’re creating awesome products with only five ingredients, we’re rising to that challenge. We see ourselves as disrupters, huge disrupters of an industry where it’s become the norm to pack and fill products with lots and lots of ingredients and so we’re saying we’re going to bust that up. It’s all about less because it’s good for you and it’s less because every single ingredient we use in the product has to be resourced from the earth, processed, driven somewhere, manufactured, mixed, driven somewhere else. If you have thirty ingredients, that’s thirty separate processes. We have five in, this is better for everybody.
Raquel: Yeah that sounds amazing, I’m all about minimalists. With five ingredients I can see you’re just using the top ingredients for whatever sort of product. Which speaking, could you tell us what the different products you’ll be launching with in August?
Zaffrin: Yeah so the range can expand quite big but as a starter we had to kind of reign in the sweetshop ambition of being able to have like ten. We had limited resources and I just made the decision I want to concentrate on the face. it’s not the biggest part of the body arguably but it made sense to me. I’m getting older, I’m turning 40 this year and I was using facial oils..
Raquel: Really? You do not look, everyone I know you cannot see her here but she does not look 40!
Zaffrin: (laughter) So I was really getting obsessed with facial oils and feeling supple but I was also getting obsessed with them because I’m addicted obviously to my mobile phone and working all the time like it is such a thrill for me but when you have to take all your makeup off, put your phone down because your hands are oily and you cannot hold your phone and check things incessantly, you look yourself in the mirror. Those moments with a facial oil will be coming the day moment of looking yourself in the eye, really look at yourself in the eye. This is who I am, this is it, this is me. I was like, it’s got to be a facial oil. We’ve got a facial oil and a facial serum, really high lots of antioxidants, fatty acids, you know omega’s 3 -6 -9. You know beautiful properties in, I asked our formulator what else? I was interested in the ideas of toners but I was really interested in the potential trend for misting a key part of everyone’s life, sit in front of a computer every day. I was like people are going to have two or three mists by their desk because it’s about a lot of hydration so he created a lovely rose and pomegranate enzyme mist which just smells beautiful and you feel happy when you use it. Really I felt the most expensive products we ended up making but I think is really amazing was an oil gel cleanser which you can kind of use for everything but it’s got no water it in. It’s got five ingredients, it’s got lavender and sea weed in it and you use it and it can take your make up off, it dissolves on your face, you can use a hot cloth, you don ‘t even really need to use a facial oil after it because you’re skin is just not stripped of anything, it’s just maintained all its natural oils and balance. That was one of our formulator’s ideas because I never thought we could of got there with something like that and then the fifth product is a rose clay safflower and kind of lavender gel face clay but you only need to use a very small amount of it to kind of just unclog your pores and it just worked as a five in terms of sets of things that would work together. I have tons of ambition for what we can do with this brand, with his concept of five but I think we haven’t launched. We have to test out if people like it, we have to get brand awareness. So we’re launching with a tight capsule that makes sense but it’s a little family that will grow hopefully.
Raquel: Yeah, no that sounds awesome. Could you tell us a little bit about the ingredients, some of the core ingredients you like to use in your products or is that kind of a secret?
Zaffrin: No not at all, there’s nothing secret and I think that that’s the great thing about transparency. You’re hoping that people will know and get to love the ingredients. We could of gone quite wacky with the ingredients actually. Actually one of the things I really wanted was that it’s really important that we’re seen as a British brand and I wanted to harp back to some of those older ingredients that are becoming popular so you do see rose. Then you also see things like evening primrose, you know old school oils that you used and associated with beauty but are being re-examined again because they’re fabulous, they have fabulous properties in terms of fatty acids. And we also got more exotic ones like cacao, green coffee bean extract and then we also got things like lavender. We could of put like five obscure oils in but it’s using that scientific approach of analyzing what’s in each ingredient that helped us dictate what we are using. I’d really like to make sure ultimately we are using one British grown oil in our products. Supply chain is really difficult to trace and British grown botanical extracts are sometimes hard to secure in small quantities because we’re tiny but the beauty of being potentially a growing brand means that you can continue to make choices. What’s also really important to know about our brand is that we’re not just a business, we’re kind of a business that’s really committed to a force for good you know the way for me isn’t just for clean beauty, it’s about changing people lives and attitudes and having a direct consumer brand is one of the best ways you can influence and make a positive impact in the world. That’s my why. And so we’ve signed up for B Corp, I don’t know if you’ve come across them and that commitment from us for getting British oils or things where the supply chain is really ethical is that we want to be a brand that isn’t about making money just for the sake of making money. We want everyone who works for us to be treated really fairly, we want our supply chain to be treated really fairly. We’ve considered our packaging, we’ve considered our impact on the environment. We’ve considered where should we bank, you know where should we be putting our money. Why did we chose one supplier over another, did we have someone local deliver for us? Where can we create employment, where can we create opportunities and so for me the products are only one aspect of an ecosystem of good stuff that we want to spread by virtue of having our company.
Raquel: That is amazing, I love that. It’s just simplifying everything and making sure that it comes from a really good place and that nothing’s wasted and that everything that’s connected to your business, there’s a point , so you’re helping people as you do it. I really like that.
Zaffrin: Also I think we’re kind of not a beauty brand, we’re a wellness brand. We sit in the beauty space but we’re about feeling good about yourself. You’re never going to be perfect, you’re beautiful as you are. Let’s use really great clean products and think about the earth, think about ourselves, think about kindness, think about everybody involved in making your product. And that’s not just, you don’t want to push just to have clean beauty, we want you to have better lives. So the brand has been really hard about encapsulating that essence as well as you know obviously we’re starting with radical minimalism but our brand is very much influenced by a bigger set of values that we hold.
Raquel: Who do you see as your ideal customer?
Zaffrin: We’ve got quite deep, I mean like everybody who’s in this business has like quite developed customer avatars and we’ve got customers that are going to be easier to convert. So yes, on one had one of our niche avatars is a person who is already interested in clean eating, you know may have changed their cleaning products, is quite international, interested in beauty but equally looks online a lot the reviews, will be on Instagram and that’s the most obvious person. But actually to convert through advertising and want to get onto your brand but if you ask me honestly who I’m really after, there’s two categories I’m really after and that’s market share for massive conglomerate beauty brands where people are turning and becoming paranoid about what’s in their skin care that haven’t yet done it because I think we’re a tipping point for big brands really coming under scrutiny. I think it’s easy to say yes, other people who are other natural beauty products but I want to eat the lunch of big business. As you know I also run Female Founders in Beauty, I think it’s really key that indie beauty are seen as a massive force conglomerate together, their own version of a giant that can take on something big and I think that that’s my ambition with the brand is habits change. With something like plastic, look at how quickly you know the back lash has happened. I think you’ll see a lot of traction and a lot of change in values when it comes to skincare. People go why am I doing this. I was at something last week where we heard from the CMO for Skin Ninja, you know the app which is a bit like Think Dirty and they just got a million pound equity investment at the seed stage app business and one of the questions I asked them is what got your investment? And they were like you know people see transparency as being big business in the future and this is disrupting how everything’s been made and so obviously I absolutely agree this is where we’re going.
Raquel: Supply chain, everything yeah.
Zaffrin: Transparency and trust and big businesses can’t do it. And Founder led business, you know when people look you in the eye, you know I am standing behind this business and these are my values, it is much more reassuring for people than saying I’m Proctor and Gamble and these are all the twenty brands I represent and I don’t know if I do good or bad or I can’t promise you anything about where my stuff has been. I think people are feeling like they have a lot of power as a consumer, they’re able to make choices that are huge. I mean it’s more powerful than the vote, how you spend your money has a bigger influence on society and where we’re going in the world than how you vote. So it’s exciting times.
Raquel: Yeah you’re completely right about and I see it even just being at INNOCOS conference last week, one of the larger brands, I think you know Leigh Burr was talking to a brand Sana Jardin and Harvey Nichols I think and talking about kind of I guess, I don’ t want to say they were against them but just saying, listen you know you’re calling yourself a natural brand but obviously you’re not familiar with your supply chain and that’s the new problem. That’s the kind of stuff that they’re looking for is to partner with brands that are transparent or at least truthful to consumers so definitely they’re starting to become aware and what they’re trying to do is obviously partner with brands who are able to do that because they’re a slow moving machine. For them to change all of their formulations and everything they’ve done over the last 50-60 years is not going to happen within the time frame smaller brands are coming to market so it’s such a great time and obviously products sound like they’re totally in line with what people are wanting and you’re right they’re voting with their pocket now. Definitely good idea.
Could you tell us, so people can’t see Zaffrin right now but like she just told us that she’s 40 years old, she doesn’t look 40 at all. Can you tell us what you’re biggest beauty secret is?
Zaffrin: Oh my god, well I think my secret at the moment is facial oil, I think that’s massively transformed by entire life. I don’t know why, I’d never come across facial oils when I was younger but I just think there’s something about it balancing your skin, its’ the fatty acids that sit perfectly in line with you own oil in your own face and it’s that, drinking loads of water. I think it’s living a cleaner life, I’ve had times where I’ve been busy at work and stressed and tired and am eating tons of sugar and I’m making poor choices and I’m living mindlessly. I’m living but living with any kind of local consciousness and it was that moment going back to the bees, it does go back to the bees because taking that bee keeping class and I had this mentor who’s in like his ‘s 60’s and he was silent and we would be there with 60,000 bees in a colony hive open, buzzing around. You know it does go back to this utter stillness that you get and I think I’m way less stressed than I was at any other period in my life but I’ve never been busier. That’s because I just live with more clarity and simplicity and not worrying about stuff. I’m empowered and everybody who’s going to buy our products will be empowered and society is changing. There’s so many things we can be down about, you know feel helpless but actually there is so much we can still do every single day in our lives to feel better and I think that’s probably my beauty secret which is like don’t worry, take action.
Raquel: Yeah (laughter). I like that. It’s so true. So how long has Five Dot Botanics been around or a thought in your mind?
Zaffrin: So the idea of it, I mean I guess it’s a year or maybe a little over a year, it started in April 2017 when I registered the company, got the trademark. But from April we were thinking a lot about what other products I wanted to launch. Strangely my big eye is on export, so I want to really establish British brands but the biggest market that’s of interest to me, I’m ethnic Bangladesh, I’m a native Londoner. I think Bangladeshi as a woman, the halal bang I’ve been in Malaysia in 2017. There’s a big halal personal cosmetics conference going on and it’s all of these things, you know I’d never even thought of halal personal cosmetics in South East Asia which is largely hugely affluent in massive affluent populations in pockets of it and it was so fortuitous at the same time I was scoping out what Five Dot Botanics should be and so I said to myself Indonesia changed all of its laws, everything had to be halal certified. So I thought if I’m going to start up a brand and I want to export it, I want it to already able to be certified at the start because it’s a headache to do it later. Weirdly enough I’d gone in to speak to different certifying bodies and it was through that I then realized I need to get a really savvy scientist on board to help me fulfil all of the scrutiny you have to do which is like audits, supply chain, inspections. I just could not handle any of it I needed somebody to say I can manage this for you. We met him then in August, the scientist that then works with us and then August to December we did most of our product formulation. The biggest issue for us was never the strategy, well it was clarity of vision, we had clarity of vision, the vision of what we’ve got now was very confused at the start. So Five Dot Botanics is something, it was massively based around plants. Even though it was always five I hadn’t got this radically minimalist concept, I was like it’s about plants, it’s about plants, that’s it nature. Okay it’s clean, green that’s great but what’s your niche? I was like it’s clean and green and they were like yeah that’s everyone’s clean and green now you know like. You need to drill deeper and what’s your big ambition because I was like, it’s going to be big. It’s not like I want to be like I’m selling for a few people.
Raquel: I think you knew it was just being able to kind of hone in on what it was you were thinking.
Zaffrin: Yeah and because it took me a while to clarify that and the thing, it’s a bit like a new house, you know you get and you’re like I’m going to decorate so branding is what everyone loves but I mean I don’t know if everyone loves it but that was the toy for me. It was like okay lovely products, great stuff and we’re going to decorate this brand. So we created a brand, there’s a lot of time and effort in it because all this product development was going on in it and December came, no maybe November came, we’d spent several months on this already, tons of versions and we’re like we can launch with this, this is cool. I just didn’t love it, I mean I didn’t love it. I just went this is cool, it would look awesome on a shelf because it’s not that it looked crap, it looked awesome but it was just not radical or bold or representing the big odd vision I had and also I wanted it to be an Instagramable brand and it needed to jar, it needed to look different, wildly different. People would love it or hate it our branding because it’s austere, it’s true to what this brand it about. This is one of the key things that happened for us, momentous moments was just going I can’t launch this brand, I cannot do this, this is pointless I’m going to pack up, I’m going to close it down because it isn’t the vision I want. So I spoke to loads of friends and was like okay, I’m going to get an agency because I was working with a freelancer. A friend of mine totally by chance said go and speak to this design agency so you know I walk up with all my old samples and stuff in a bag and sit down, amazing design agency, they don’t get out of bed for like tens and tens and tens of thousands of pounds just to pick up their pen. So why am I here, what am I doing, and they were like we love this product, we love this project, even if we could do it for our portfolio we would love to do it. Even at their cheapest rates, they just could not make it work. They were a huge design agency but they said, we know someone and this someone, she just had totally thoughtful, quite designer. Awesome credentials, you know like huge history in launching, challenger brands, iconic brands most importantly. So challenger brands is important for people taking on big business to creating an icon, iconic brand that is just totally yours because in this space it’s so noisy. You know someone can equally go I’m a radicalists clean, green brand, great.
Raquel: Yeah exactly, so what?
Zaffrin: We have a distinctive style and voice that is so unique to this brand, I registered the trademark like everywhere so no one can even get close to imitating like what we’ve done with this brand style and it’s ours and it just makes my heart sing when I see it because this is it. This is different, people are like perplexed by it, it’s totally morse code, it’s black and white with kind of a coral red. It’s gender neutral because we are after the male market, so when you are asking me who are you wanting to convert, yes there is obviously a big skew towards women but our absolute aim is to become a brand that men will pick up and go I would love this in my bathroom. People who geek out about design will have this in their bathroom and it’s designed by an amazing designer. It’s designed to look beautiful, exceptional in people’s homes who like minimalist design.
Raquel: I’m dying to see it now.
Zaffrin: I’m going to send you some photos.
Raquel: All right cool, any words of advise you would give to somebody starting out a new brand or skincare line?
Zaffrin: Yeah a skincare line, partner with the right people. I mean I also should add I’m also studying a Diploma in Organic Skincare but that’s just kind of to supplement the knowledge that our scientists have and just to bring me up to speed. So partner with the right people for creating your line. Get your branding registered, make sure you get your IP sorted so you can create an asset that’s growing with your business and you don’t have any headaches down the line. Think about investment and actually Raquel you’ve been great with The Clean Hub because you really push an angle that I think indie beauty doesn’t always realize is that they need to be thinking about funding way sooner than they really think about it. So it’s been brilliant some of your slides, even your slides I think that you’ve put up was just brilliant for me just going yes!
Raquel: (Laughter) Tell us what you need and we will give it to you , yeah.
Zaffrin: That’s been really good and thinking about your margin and how you’re going to sell. So we’re really about B to C, we are not really that excited about wholesaling since the parties, we will do it with key strategic partners but we want to own and love our customers.
Raquel: That’s the new hot thing, direct to consumers yeah.
Zaffrin: Not interested in just like strugging my stuff, I mean you do have to sell it to other retailers. It’s not my thing, I want to own my customer. I want to own them for their whole life and give them love and they can give us love back. That’s the ambition and then the other aspect is then just doing the branding right. Just create something that’s true to your brand. But it’s an amazing time to launch a beauty brand. Don’t need tons of capital and it’s never too early to do social, that’s one of my regrets of feeling conscious about it for twelve months when I should off been just putting stuff out there but I didn’t do it. Now I’m relaxed, now I’ve started doing and I just feel relaxed about it.
Raquel: Yeah, thank you so much and so you’re launching in August and will everything be available online then?
Zaffrin: Yeah I’m hoping August, I say August with everything right because I’ve never done like a tech build for a shop and everyone says, Zaffrin it’s going to take longer than you think.
Raquel: Yeah I can tell you that much (laughter).
Zaffrin: I’m like it’ll be done, how difficult can it be just put the stuff yeah so August, September. I really would love it to be launched before IBE, I’m not exhibiting, well I say that but there is something about wanting it up before IBE because there’s a lot of press and focus on clean beauty and I think I’ll be missing a trick not to at least have something I can play on.
Raquel: Definitely, yeah. Well I’ll see you there if you’re there.
Zaffrin: Yeah its’ exciting in London, it’s going to be cool.
Raquel: Yeah very cool okay and so what is your Instagram handle so we can tell everyone to go ahead and follow you?
Zaffrin: It’s @FiveDotBotanics.
Raquel: Perfect so go to their website FiveDotBotanics.com and you can sign up to their newsletter and find out when they’re launching . I’m super stoked so I will definitely being doing that. Alright well thank you so much Zaffrin for all your knowledge today, it’s been a great chat.
Zaffrin: It’s been fun yeah, thank you so much. It’s so lovely that you’re doing this, wonderful.
Raquel: No thank you, I’m happy. We’ll have to do this again and I feel like we have so much more to talk about. Thank you all to the listeners and I hope you have a great day. Viva Clean Beauty.
Thanks for listening to The Clean Chat today, if you’re a clean beauty founder don’t forget to sign up to our free resources hub at Thecleanhub.com. Have a fab day everyone and Viva Clean Beauty.